Difference: TCG-TC-20260128 (1 vs. 7)

Revision 72026-01-28 - PatrickDowler

 
META TOPICPARENT name="IvoaTCG"

TCG Meeting (online) - Wednesday January 28 2026 @ 14:00 UTC


Attendees

  • Attendees : Adrian, Brigitta, Bruno, Gilles, Grégory, Gus, Judy, Marco, Mark CD, Mark K, Markus, Mathieu, Pat, Renaud, Sara, Sébastien, Shanshan, Tess, Tamara, Tom, Yihan
  • Regrets : André, Baptiste, Janet, Jeremy, Mark A., Stéphane

Actions

  • OPEN - MM to create document for collecting DM use cases that could be used in hack-a-thon. Some initial ideas given during the 20260128 TCG meeting.
  • OPEN - put together a template for call for proposals; model after DAL (postponed)
    • May address for next interop.
  • OPEN - (ALL) brainstorm within groups about contributing to the data model usage hack-a-thon/workshop proposal (OPEN)
    • Some discussion in today's meeting
  • NEW - standards to be moved to the obsolete section: CDP, (OPEN)

Agenda

  • Jeremy is stepping down as deputy for Education
  • astronet.ru is back and working. There are some problems with the xml but it is usable
  • EuroVO registry is down for technical reasons.
  • (standing item): documents on track
    • RFC
      • VOEvent-2.1 - RFC page - what's the status?
        • BC not available, so defer discussion
      • MANGO-1.0 RFC page: check RFC progress & voting potential
        • Significant activity on RFC
        • Semantics is needed and they are coordinating their feedback.
      • DALI-1.2 RFC page: RFC empty
        • Concern from Apps
      • DocRegExt -1.0 RFC page: RFC nearly empty
        • Seems uncontroversial and would be useful, so please have a look.
    • EN
      • DataOrigin-1.2: PEN ( PEN doc): some feedback arrived, still EN flavour to be discussed
    • Errata
      • Spectrum-1.2 Erratum 1 - approved as of 2025-12-11 (document pages status?)
        • Housekeeping details (it shows up on the document page) have been taken care of (MCD)
    • VEPs
      • VEP-018: product-type#hyper-dynamic-spectrum - overview and/or vote
      • VEP-019: ivoasem#ucd-syntax-code - overview (vote?)
      • VEP-020: Product-type#event-bundle - overview (vote?)

  • Roadmap 2025B looks in good shape: something critical to highlight?

  • Group statuses
    • round-the-table activities (done, in progress, foreseen)
      • Apps: VOTable 1.6 and HiPS updates are in progress. HiPS is being moved to github. MOC and HATS also, but maybe no recent progress.
      • DAL: Not a lot of activity since last meeting. Expect Cone Search progress early this year, and expect DALI to become a REC. SLAP will evolve also.
      • DM: Preparing for integration of ObsCore extensions into ObsCore 2.0.
      • Reg: After DocRegExt will work on VO Data Service. It needs to be able to publish product type served. Need a mechanism to distinguish simulated data. Planning a spring cleaning for the next interop.
      • Sem: Vocab for observational facilities. Working with Xiuqin Wu from NED on that and some UCDs. BCs ontological work. Working with ML on UCD list updates
      • DCP: Working on Data Origin and DOI note, which should be published by next IVOA.
      • Edu: Working with PH to organize some online and offline IVOA training. Will touch base with Jeremy on any work in progress.
      • HE: Main focus is prototyping ObsCore extensions. Also working on vocabularies.
      • KDD: Looking into aspects of AI.
      • Ops: Starting new activity: web page for all validators. Will be asking groups for input on that. Also looking at user agents re recent discussions about updates that could help better identify legitimate climates
      • Radio: Need another round of editing for the note, but then it should be ready. Starting a collaboration with advanced data products group for making products generated from images available. No major updates on potential deputy, but maybe some leads in advanced data products group. Will discuss with JJ.
      • SS: MD will work on EPNTAP in pyvo. Welcome collaboration and good use cases to exercise it and put in notebooks.
      • TG: PF working on HiPS. Some conversations on VOEvent. Rubin not using VOEvent for efficiency reasons and will not be changing. Talking to Roman community. There is some general interest in defining a standard, but needs coordination. Some reticence may be misunderstanding that the transport mechanism is not required.
Changed:
<
<
      • S&P: Some movement getting more standards under github.
>
>
 
  • Open discussions:
    • Data Models
      • DM work seems secluded from other groups. Are we working on the right things? Can we integrate better? These questions lead to the hack-a-thon/workshop idea. How do we move forward with this?
        • RS: Working on a project that could use modeling, so a hack-a-thon would be useful to explore these things concretely.
        • MM: Can we make a list of use cases like that? Any DAL members with relevant projects?
        • GM: Have worked with LM w/MANGO and Simbad photometry and positions. So far it looks good but need much more testing.
        • MCD: Suggest thinking of things (other than MANGO) that you can't do now with scattered metadata that may benefit from a model to consolidate it.
        • MM: Is there a good way to collect these use cases and hands-on projects where I could use DM expertise to move it forward? (I know I'm asking for a lot of things, but if you have any ideas
        • GL: Another topic could be how best to store model data (like proper motion) in DB/TAP schema.
        • GM: What is missing is probably clients, so we do need use cases for clients to do something useful with the existing models.
    • Endorsed Notes meaning

  • IGs & TCG/CSP interfacing: status

  • (long standing topics reminder)
    • positions still TBF: Radio IG vice-chair role is open
    • new website: report

  • IVOA Northern Spring June 2026 Interoperability Meeting: 8-12 June 2026, Strasbourg

  • AOB
    • communication: TCG-view on role of the IVOA in multi-messenger astrophysical research @ COSPAR

  • Date for the next TCG
    • proposal: Thursday 26 February 2026 @ 21:00 UTC

TCG meeting dates, as well as other relevant meetings, should always be reported also at the IVOA Events page.

<--  
-->
Deleted:
<
<

Revision 62026-01-28 - MarcoMolinaro

 
META TOPICPARENT name="IvoaTCG"

TCG Meeting (online) - Wednesday January 28 2026 @ 14:00 UTC


Attendees

Changed:
<
<
  • Attendees :
>
>
  • Attendees : Adrian, Brigitta, Bruno, Gilles, Grégory, Gus, Judy, Marco, Mark CD, Mark K, Markus, Mathieu, Pat, Renaud, Sara, Sébastien, Shanshan, Tess, Tamara, Tom, Yihan
 
  • Regrets : André, Baptiste, Janet, Jeremy, Mark A., Stéphane
Deleted:
<
<
 

Actions

  • OPEN - MM to create document for collecting DM use cases that could be used in hack-a-thon. Some initial ideas given during the 20260128 TCG meeting.
  • OPEN - put together a template for call for proposals; model after DAL (postponed)
    • May address for next interop.
  • OPEN - (ALL) brainstorm within groups about contributing to the data model usage hack-a-thon/workshop proposal (OPEN)
    • Some discussion in today's meeting
  • NEW - standards to be moved to the obsolete section: CDP, (OPEN)

Agenda

  • Jeremy is stepping down as deputy for Education
  • astronet.ru is back and working. There are some problems with the xml but it is usable
  • EuroVO registry is down for technical reasons.
  • (standing item): documents on track
    • RFC
      • VOEvent-2.1 - RFC page - what's the status?
        • BC not available, so defer discussion
      • MANGO-1.0 RFC page: check RFC progress & voting potential
        • Significant activity on RFC
        • Semantics is needed and they are coordinating their feedback.
      • DALI-1.2 RFC page: RFC empty
        • Concern from Apps
      • DocRegExt -1.0 RFC page: RFC nearly empty
        • Seems uncontroversial and would be useful, so please have a look.
    • EN
      • DataOrigin-1.2: PEN ( PEN doc): some feedback arrived, still EN flavour to be discussed
    • Errata
      • Spectrum-1.2 Erratum 1 - approved as of 2025-12-11 (document pages status?)
        • Housekeeping details (it shows up on the document page) have been taken care of (MCD)
    • VEPs
      • VEP-018: product-type#hyper-dynamic-spectrum - overview and/or vote
      • VEP-019: ivoasem#ucd-syntax-code - overview (vote?)
      • VEP-020: Product-type#event-bundle - overview (vote?)

  • Roadmap 2025B looks in good shape: something critical to highlight?

  • Group statuses
    • round-the-table activities (done, in progress, foreseen)
      • Apps: VOTable 1.6 and HiPS updates are in progress. HiPS is being moved to github. MOC and HATS also, but maybe no recent progress.
      • DAL: Not a lot of activity since last meeting. Expect Cone Search progress early this year, and expect DALI to become a REC. SLAP will evolve also.
      • DM: Preparing for integration of ObsCore extensions into ObsCore 2.0.
      • Reg: After DocRegExt will work on VO Data Service. It needs to be able to publish product type served. Need a mechanism to distinguish simulated data. Planning a spring cleaning for the next interop.
      • Sem: Vocab for observational facilities. Working with Xiuqin Wu from NED on that and some UCDs. BCs ontological work. Working with ML on UCD list updates
      • DCP: Working on Data Origin and DOI note, which should be published by next IVOA.
      • Edu: Working with PH to organize some online and offline IVOA training. Will touch base with Jeremy on any work in progress.
      • HE: Main focus is prototyping ObsCore extensions. Also working on vocabularies.
      • KDD: Looking into aspects of AI.
      • Ops: Starting new activity: web page for all validators. Will be asking groups for input on that. Also looking at user agents re recent discussions about updates that could help better identify legitimate climates
      • Radio: Need another round of editing for the note, but then it should be ready. Starting a collaboration with advanced data products group for making products generated from images available. No major updates on potential deputy, but maybe some leads in advanced data products group. Will discuss with JJ.
      • SS: MD will work on EPNTAP in pyvo. Welcome collaboration and good use cases to exercise it and put in notebooks.
      • TG: PF working on HiPS. Some conversations on VOEvent. Rubin not using VOEvent for efficiency reasons and will not be changing. Talking to Roman community. There is some general interest in defining a standard, but needs coordination. Some reticence may be misunderstanding that the transport mechanism is not required.
      • S&P: Some movement getting more standards under github.

  • Open discussions:
    • Data Models
      • DM work seems secluded from other groups. Are we working on the right things? Can we integrate better? These questions lead to the hack-a-thon/workshop idea. How do we move forward with this?
        • RS: Working on a project that could use modeling, so a hack-a-thon would be useful to explore these things concretely.
        • MM: Can we make a list of use cases like that? Any DAL members with relevant projects?
        • GM: Have worked with LM w/MANGO and Simbad photometry and positions. So far it looks good but need much more testing.
        • MCD: Suggest thinking of things (other than MANGO) that you can't do now with scattered metadata that may benefit from a model to consolidate it.
        • MM: Is there a good way to collect these use cases and hands-on projects where I could use DM expertise to move it forward? (I know I'm asking for a lot of things, but if you have any ideas
        • GL: Another topic could be how best to store model data (like proper motion) in DB/TAP schema.
        • GM: What is missing is probably clients, so we do need use cases for clients to do something useful with the existing models.
    • Endorsed Notes meaning

  • IGs & TCG/CSP interfacing: status

  • (long standing topics reminder)
    • positions still TBF: Radio IG vice-chair role is open
    • new website: report

  • IVOA Northern Spring June 2026 Interoperability Meeting: 8-12 June 2026, Strasbourg

  • AOB
    • communication: TCG-view on role of the IVOA in multi-messenger astrophysical research @ COSPAR

  • Date for the next TCG
    • proposal: Thursday 26 February 2026 @ 21:00 UTC

TCG meeting dates, as well as other relevant meetings, should always be reported also at the IVOA Events page.

<--  
-->

Revision 52026-01-28 - TomDonaldson

 
META TOPICPARENT name="IvoaTCG"

TCG Meeting (online) - Wednesday January 28 2026 @ 14:00 UTC


Attendees

Changed:
<
<
  • Attendees :
>
>
  • Attendees :
 
  • Regrets : André, Baptiste, Janet, Jeremy, Mark A., Stéphane

Actions

Added:
>
>
  • OPEN - MM to create document for collecting DM use cases that could be used in hack-a-thon. Some initial ideas given during the 20260128 TCG meeting.
 
  • OPEN - put together a template for call for proposals; model after DAL (postponed)
Added:
>
>
    • May address for next interop.
 
  • OPEN - (ALL) brainstorm within groups about contributing to the data model usage hack-a-thon/workshop proposal (OPEN)
Added:
>
>
    • Some discussion in today's meeting
 
  • NEW - standards to be moved to the obsolete section: CDP, (OPEN)

Agenda

Changed:
<
<
  • (standing item): documents on track
>
>
  • Jeremy is stepping down as deputy for Education
  • astronet.ru is back and working. There are some problems with the xml but it is usable
Added:
>
>
  • EuroVO registry is down for technical reasons.
  • (standing item): documents on track
 
    • RFC
      • VOEvent-2.1 - RFC page - what's the status?
Added:
>
>
        • BC not available, so defer discussion
 
      • MANGO-1.0 RFC page: check RFC progress & voting potential
Added:
>
>
        • Significant activity on RFC
        • Semantics is needed and they are coordinating their feedback.
 
Added:
>
>
        • Concern from Apps
 
      • DocRegExt -1.0 RFC page: RFC nearly empty
Added:
>
>
        • Seems uncontroversial and would be useful, so please have a look.
 
    • EN
Changed:
<
<
      • DataOrigin-1.2: PEN ( PEN doc): some feedback arrived, still EN flavour to be discussed
>
>
      • DataOrigin-1.2: PEN ( PEN doc): some feedback arrived, still EN flavour to be discussed
 
Added:
>
>
        • Housekeeping details (it shows up on the document page) have been taken care of (MCD)
 
    • VEPs
      • VEP-018: product-type#hyper-dynamic-spectrum - overview and/or vote
Added:
>
>
 
      • VEP-019: ivoasem#ucd-syntax-code - overview (vote?)
      • VEP-020: Product-type#event-bundle - overview (vote?)
Changed:
<
<
  • Roadmap 2025B looks in good shape: something critical to highlight?
>
>
  • Roadmap 2025B looks in good shape: something critical to highlight?
 
  • Group statuses
    • round-the-table activities (done, in progress, foreseen)
Added:
>
>
      • Apps: VOTable 1.6 and HiPS updates are in progress. HiPS is being moved to github. MOC and HATS also, but maybe no recent progress.
      • DAL: Not a lot of activity since last meeting. Expect Cone Search progress early this year, and expect DALI to become a REC. SLAP will evolve also.
      • DM: Preparing for integration of ObsCore extensions into ObsCore 2.0.
      • Reg: After DocRegExt will work on VO Data Service. It needs to be able to publish product type served. Need a mechanism to distinguish simulated data. Planning a spring cleaning for the next interop.
      • Sem: Vocab for observational facilities. Working with Xiuqin Wu from NED on that and some UCDs. BCs ontological work. Working with ML on UCD list updates
      • DCP: Working on Data Origin and DOI note, which should be published by next IVOA.
      • Edu: Working with PH to organize some online and offline IVOA training. Will touch base with Jeremy on any work in progress.
      • HE: Main focus is prototyping ObsCore extensions. Also working on vocabularies.
      • KDD: Looking into aspects of AI.
      • Ops: Starting new activity: web page for all validators. Will be asking groups for input on that. Also looking at user agents re recent discussions about updates that could help better identify legitimate climates
      • Radio: Need another round of editing for the note, but then it should be ready. Starting a collaboration with advanced data products group for making products generated from images available. No major updates on potential deputy, but maybe some leads in advanced data products group. Will discuss with JJ.
      • SS: MD will work on EPNTAP in pyvo. Welcome collaboration and good use cases to exercise it and put in notebooks.
      • TG: PF working on HiPS. Some conversations on VOEvent. Rubin not using VOEvent for efficiency reasons and will not be changing. Talking to Roman community. There is some general interest in defining a standard, but needs coordination. Some reticence may be misunderstanding that the transport mechanism is not required.
      • S&P: Some movement getting more standards under github.
 
  • Open discussions:
    • Data Models
Added:
>
>
      • DM work seems secluded from other groups. Are we working on the right things? Can we integrate better? These questions lead to the hack-a-thon/workshop idea. How do we move forward with this?
        • RS: Working on a project that could use modeling, so a hack-a-thon would be useful to explore these things concretely.
        • MM: Can we make a list of use cases like that? Any DAL members with relevant projects?
        • GM: Have worked with LM w/MANGO and Simbad photometry and positions. So far it looks good but need much more testing.
        • MCD: Suggest thinking of things (other than MANGO) that you can't do now with scattered metadata that may benefit from a model to consolidate it.
        • MM: Is there a good way to collect these use cases and hands-on projects where I could use DM expertise to move it forward? (I know I'm asking for a lot of things, but if you have any ideas
        • GL: Another topic could be how best to store model data (like proper motion) in DB/TAP schema.
        • GM: What is missing is probably clients, so we do need use cases for clients to do something useful with the existing models.
 
    • Endorsed Notes meaning
Added:
>
>
 
  • IGs & TCG/CSP interfacing: status

  • (long standing topics reminder)
    • positions still TBF: Radio IG vice-chair role is open
    • new website: report

  • IVOA Northern Spring June 2026 Interoperability Meeting: 8-12 June 2026, Strasbourg

  • AOB
    • communication: TCG-view on role of the IVOA in multi-messenger astrophysical research @ COSPAR

  • Date for the next TCG
    • proposal: Thursday 26 February 2026 @ 21:00 UTC

TCG meeting dates, as well as other relevant meetings, should always be reported also at the IVOA Events page.

<--  
-->
Added:
>
>

Revision 42026-01-28 - MarcoMolinaro

 
META TOPICPARENT name="IvoaTCG"

TCG Meeting (online) - Wednesday January 28 2026 @ 14:00 UTC


Attendees

  • Attendees :
Changed:
<
<
  • Regrets : Janet, Baptiste, Mark A., Stéphane
>
>
  • Regrets : André, Baptiste, Janet, Jeremy, Mark A., Stéphane
 

Actions

  • OPEN - put together a template for call for proposals; model after DAL (postponed)
  • OPEN - (ALL) brainstorm within groups about contributing to the data model usage hack-a-thon/workshop proposal (OPEN)
  • NEW - standards to be moved to the obsolete section: CDP, (OPEN)

Agenda

  • (standing item): documents on track
    • RFC
    • EN
      • DataOrigin-1.2: PEN ( PEN doc): some feedback arrived, still EN flavour to be discussed
    • Errata
    • VEPs
      • VEP-018: product-type#hyper-dynamic-spectrum - overview and/or vote
      • VEP-019: ivoasem#ucd-syntax-code - overview (vote?)
      • VEP-020: Product-type#event-bundle - overview (vote?)

  • Roadmap 2025B looks in good shape: something critical to highlight?

  • Group statuses
    • round-the-table activities (done, in progress, foreseen)

  • Open discussions:
    • Data Models
    • Endorsed Notes meaning

  • IGs & TCG/CSP interfacing: status

  • (long standing topics reminder)
    • positions still TBF: Radio IG vice-chair role is open
    • new website: report

  • IVOA Northern Spring June 2026 Interoperability Meeting: 8-12 June 2026, Strasbourg

  • AOB
    • communication: TCG-view on role of the IVOA in multi-messenger astrophysical research @ COSPAR

  • Date for the next TCG
    • proposal: Thursday 26 February 2026 @ 21:00 UTC

TCG meeting dates, as well as other relevant meetings, should always be reported also at the IVOA Events page.

<--  
-->

Revision 32026-01-27 - MarcoMolinaro

 
META TOPICPARENT name="IvoaTCG"

TCG Meeting (online) - Wednesday January 28 2026 @ 14:00 UTC


Attendees

  • Attendees :
Changed:
<
<
  • Regrets : Janet
>
>
  • Regrets : Janet, Baptiste, Mark A., Stéphane
 

Actions

  • OPEN - put together a template for call for proposals; model after DAL (postponed)
  • OPEN - (ALL) brainstorm within groups about contributing to the data model usage hack-a-thon/workshop proposal (OPEN)
  • NEW - standards to be moved to the obsolete section: CDP, (OPEN)

Agenda

  • (standing item): documents on track
    • RFC
    • EN
      • DataOrigin-1.2: PEN ( PEN doc): some feedback arrived, still EN flavour to be discussed
    • Errata
    • VEPs
      • VEP-018: product-type#hyper-dynamic-spectrum - overview and/or vote
      • VEP-019: ivoasem#ucd-syntax-code - overview (vote?)
      • VEP-020: Product-type#event-bundle - overview (vote?)

  • Roadmap 2025B looks in good shape: something critical to highlight?

  • Group statuses
    • round-the-table activities (done, in progress, foreseen)

  • Open discussions:
    • Data Models
    • Endorsed Notes meaning

  • IGs & TCG/CSP interfacing: status

  • (long standing topics reminder)
    • positions still TBF: Radio IG vice-chair role is open
    • new website: report

  • IVOA Northern Spring June 2026 Interoperability Meeting: 8-12 June 2026, Strasbourg

  • AOB
    • communication: TCG-view on role of the IVOA in multi-messenger astrophysical research @ COSPAR

  • Date for the next TCG
    • proposal: Thursday 26 February 2026 @ 21:00 UTC

TCG meeting dates, as well as other relevant meetings, should always be reported also at the IVOA Events page.

<--  
-->

Revision 22026-01-27 - MarcoMolinaro

 
META TOPICPARENT name="IvoaTCG"

TCG Meeting (online) - Wednesday January 28 2026 @ 14:00 UTC


Attendees

  • Attendees :
Changed:
<
<
  • Regrets :
>
>
  • Regrets : Janet
 

Actions

  • OPEN - put together a template for call for proposals; model after DAL (postponed)
  • OPEN - (ALL) brainstorm within groups about contributing to the data model usage hack-a-thon/workshop proposal (OPEN)
  • NEW - standards to be moved to the obsolete section: CDP, (OPEN)

Agenda

  • (standing item): documents on track
    • RFC
    • EN
      • DataOrigin-1.2: PEN ( PEN doc): some feedback arrived, still EN flavour to be discussed
    • Errata
    • VEPs
      • VEP-018: product-type#hyper-dynamic-spectrum - overview and/or vote
      • VEP-019: ivoasem#ucd-syntax-code - overview (vote?)
      • VEP-020: Product-type#event-bundle - overview (vote?)

  • Roadmap 2025B looks in good shape: something critical to highlight?

  • Group statuses
    • round-the-table activities (done, in progress, foreseen)

  • Open discussions:
    • Data Models
    • Endorsed Notes meaning

  • IGs & TCG/CSP interfacing: status

  • (long standing topics reminder)
    • positions still TBF: Radio IG vice-chair role is open
    • new website: report

  • IVOA Northern Spring June 2026 Interoperability Meeting: 8-12 June 2026, Strasbourg

  • AOB
    • communication: TCG-view on role of the IVOA in multi-messenger astrophysical research @ COSPAR

  • Date for the next TCG
    • proposal: Thursday 26 February 2026 @ 21:00 UTC

TCG meeting dates, as well as other relevant meetings, should always be reported also at the IVOA Events page.

<--  
-->
Deleted:
<
<

Revision 12026-01-26 - MarcoMolinaro

 
META TOPICPARENT name="IvoaTCG"

TCG Meeting (online) - Wednesday January 28 2026 @ 14:00 UTC


Attendees

  • Attendees :
  • Regrets :

Actions

  • OPEN - put together a template for call for proposals; model after DAL (postponed)
  • OPEN - (ALL) brainstorm within groups about contributing to the data model usage hack-a-thon/workshop proposal (OPEN)
  • NEW - standards to be moved to the obsolete section: CDP, (OPEN)

Agenda

  • (standing item): documents on track
    • RFC
    • EN
      • DataOrigin-1.2: PEN ( PEN doc): some feedback arrived, still EN flavour to be discussed
    • Errata
    • VEPs
      • VEP-018: product-type#hyper-dynamic-spectrum - overview and/or vote
      • VEP-019: ivoasem#ucd-syntax-code - overview (vote?)
      • VEP-020: Product-type#event-bundle - overview (vote?)

  • Roadmap 2025B looks in good shape: something critical to highlight?

  • Group statuses
    • round-the-table activities (done, in progress, foreseen)

  • Open discussions:
    • Data Models
    • Endorsed Notes meaning

  • IGs & TCG/CSP interfacing: status

  • (long standing topics reminder)
    • positions still TBF: Radio IG vice-chair role is open
    • new website: report

  • IVOA Northern Spring June 2026 Interoperability Meeting: 8-12 June 2026, Strasbourg

  • AOB
    • communication: TCG-view on role of the IVOA in multi-messenger astrophysical research @ COSPAR

  • Date for the next TCG
    • proposal: Thursday 26 February 2026 @ 21:00 UTC

TCG meeting dates, as well as other relevant meetings, should always be reported also at the IVOA Events page.

<--  
-->
 
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