Difference: InterOpPlenary20031017 (1 vs. 14)

Revision 142012-06-26 - root

 
META TOPICPARENT name="InterOpOct2003"
Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


1. Intro, RH (8.30)

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

2. Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW] (8.35)

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

3. Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ] (8.40)

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable

4. Registry, Tony Linde [TL] (8.50)

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

5. VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO] (9.10)

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

6. VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO] (9.55)

  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/_SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane"> 6.1 ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach

break (10.30)

7. Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW] (11.00)

7.1 UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

7.2 UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

8. Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM] (11.55)

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

8.1 DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.

8.2 Spectral Data Model, JCM

  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

Lunch (12.45)

9. Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT] (14.00)

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • A survey among data providers and consumers has been conducted.
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues

    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

10. 14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR] (14.50)

  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.

11. Wrapping Up, RH (15.30)

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

Meeting closed at 16.00

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

  • Action IM1003-P5-1 FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo
  • Action IM1003-P5-2 FO: prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes
  • Action IM1003-P5-3 FO: transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • Action IM1003-P7-1 UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • Action IM1003-P11-1 WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • Action IM1003-P11-2 UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definition

META TOPICMOVED by="MarcoLeoni" date="1066586402" from="IVOA.InterOpPlanery20031017" to="IVOA.InterOpPlenary20031017"

Revision 132007-01-19 - BrunoRino

 
META TOPICPARENT name="InterOpOct2003"
Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


1. Intro, RH (8.30)

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

2. Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW] (8.35)

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

3. Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ] (8.40)

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
Changed:
<
<
3 IvoaVOQL
>
>
3 VOQL
 
3 VOTable

4. Registry, Tony Linde [TL] (8.50)

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

5. VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO] (9.10)

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

Changed:
<
<

6. IvoaVOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO] (9.55)

>
>

6. VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO] (9.55)

 
  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
Changed:
<
<
  1. layered structure for IvoaVOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify IvoaVOQL with respect to UCDs
>
>
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
 
  1. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/_SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane"> 6.1 ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Changed:
<
<
Q: Is IvoaVOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
>
>
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
 A: layered approach

break (10.30)

7. Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW] (11.00)

7.1 UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

7.2 UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

8. Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM] (11.55)

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

8.1 DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.

8.2 Spectral Data Model, JCM

  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

Lunch (12.45)

9. Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT] (14.00)

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • A survey among data providers and consumers has been conducted.
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues

    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

10. 14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR] (14.50)

  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
Changed:
<
<
  • list of services: SkyNode IvoaVOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
>
>
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
 
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.

11. Wrapping Up, RH (15.30)

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

Meeting closed at 16.00

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

  • Action IM1003-P5-1 FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo
  • Action IM1003-P5-2 FO: prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes
  • Action IM1003-P5-3 FO: transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • Action IM1003-P7-1 UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • Action IM1003-P11-1 WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • Action IM1003-P11-2 UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definition

<--  
-->

META TOPICMOVED by="MarcoLeoni" date="1066586402" from="IVOA.InterOpPlanery20031017" to="IVOA.InterOpPlenary20031017"

Revision 122007-01-17 - BrunoRino

 
META TOPICPARENT name="InterOpOct2003"
Changed:
<
<
Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


1. Intro, RH (8.30)

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

2. Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW] (8.35)

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

3. Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ] (8.40)

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable

4. Registry, Tony Linde [TL] (8.50)

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

5. VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO] (9.10)

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

6. VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO] (9.55)

  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/_SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane"> 6.1 ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach

break (10.30)

7. Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW] (11.00)

7.1 UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

7.2 UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

8. Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM] (11.55)

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

8.1 DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.

8.2 Spectral Data Model, JCM

  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

Lunch (12.45)

9. Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT] (14.00)

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • A survey among data providers and consumers has been conducted.
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues

    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

10. 14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR] (14.50)

  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.

11. Wrapping Up, RH (15.30)

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

Meeting closed at 16.00

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

  • Action IM1003-P5-1 FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo
  • Action IM1003-P5-2 FO: prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes
  • Action IM1003-P5-3 FO: transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • Action IM1003-P7-1 UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • Action IM1003-P11-1 WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • Action IM1003-P11-2 UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definition

<--  
-->
>
>
Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


1. Intro, RH (8.30)

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

2. Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW] (8.35)

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

3. Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ] (8.40)

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 IvoaVOQL
3 VOTable

4. Registry, Tony Linde [TL] (8.50)

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

5. VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO] (9.10)

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

6. IvoaVOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO] (9.55)

  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for IvoaVOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify IvoaVOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/_SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane"> 6.1 ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is IvoaVOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach

break (10.30)

7. Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW] (11.00)

7.1 UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

7.2 UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

8. Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM] (11.55)

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

8.1 DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.

8.2 Spectral Data Model, JCM

  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

Lunch (12.45)

9. Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT] (14.00)

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • A survey among data providers and consumers has been conducted.
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues

    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

10. 14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR] (14.50)

  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode IvoaVOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.

11. Wrapping Up, RH (15.30)

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

Meeting closed at 16.00

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

  • Action IM1003-P5-1 FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo
  • Action IM1003-P5-2 FO: prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes
  • Action IM1003-P5-3 FO: transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • Action IM1003-P7-1 UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • Action IM1003-P11-1 WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • Action IM1003-P11-2 UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definition

<--  
-->
Added:
>
>
 
META TOPICMOVED by="MarcoLeoni" date="1066586402" from="IVOA.InterOpPlanery20031017" to="IVOA.InterOpPlenary20031017"

Revision 112003-10-22 - MarkusDolensky

 
META TOPICPARENT name="InterOpOct2003"
Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


1. Intro, RH (8.30)

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

2. Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW] (8.35)

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

3. Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ] (8.40)

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable

4. Registry, Tony Linde [TL] (8.50)

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

5. VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO] (9.10)

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

6. VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO] (9.55)

  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/_SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane"> 6.1 ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach

break (10.30)

7. Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW] (11.00)

7.1 UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

7.2 UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

8. Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM] (11.55)

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

8.1 DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.

8.2 Spectral Data Model, JCM

  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

Lunch (12.45)

9. Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT] (14.00)

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • A survey among data providers and consumers has been conducted.
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues
Added:
>
>
 
    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

10. 14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR] (14.50)

  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.

11. Wrapping Up, RH (15.30)

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

Meeting closed at 16.00

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

Changed:
<
<
  • Action IM1003-P2-1A FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo
  • Action IM1003-P2-1B FO: prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes
  • Action IM1003-P2-1C FO: transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • Action IM1003-P2-2 UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and
>
>
  • Action IM1003-P5-1 FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo
  • Action IM1003-P5-2 FO: prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes
  • Action IM1003-P5-3 FO: transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • Action IM1003-P7-1 UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and
  how to deal with backward compatibility
Changed:
<
<
  • Action IM1003-P2-3 WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • Action IM1003-P2-4 UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definition
>
>
  • Action IM1003-P11-1 WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • Action IM1003-P11-2 UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definition
 

<--  
-->
META TOPICMOVED by="MarcoLeoni" date="1066586402" from="IVOA.InterOpPlanery20031017" to="IVOA.InterOpPlenary20031017"

Revision 102003-10-22 - MarkusDolensky

 
META TOPICPARENT name="InterOpOct2003"
Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


1. Intro, RH (8.30)

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

2. Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW] (8.35)

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

3. Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ] (8.40)

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable

4. Registry, Tony Linde [TL] (8.50)

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

5. VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO] (9.10)

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

6. VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO] (9.55)

  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/_SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane"> 6.1 ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach

break (10.30)

7. Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW] (11.00)

7.1 UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

7.2 UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

8. Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM] (11.55)

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

8.1 DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.

8.2 Spectral Data Model, JCM

  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

Lunch (12.45)

9. Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT] (14.00)

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • A survey among data providers and consumers has been conducted.
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues
    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

10. 14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR] (14.50)

  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.

11. Wrapping Up, RH (15.30)

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

Meeting closed at 16.00

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

Changed:
<
<
  • Action IM1003-P2-1 FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
>
>
  • Action IM1003-P2-1A FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo
  • Action IM1003-P2-1B FO: prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes
  • Action IM1003-P2-1C FO: transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
 
  • Action IM1003-P2-2 UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • Action IM1003-P2-3 WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • Action IM1003-P2-4 UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definition

<--  
-->
META TOPICMOVED by="MarcoLeoni" date="1066586402" from="IVOA.InterOpPlanery20031017" to="IVOA.InterOpPlenary20031017"

Revision 92003-10-22 - MarkusDolensky

 
META TOPICPARENT name="InterOpOct2003"
Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


1. Intro, RH (8.30)

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

2. Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW] (8.35)

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

3. Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ] (8.40)

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable

4. Registry, Tony Linde [TL] (8.50)

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

5. VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO] (9.10)

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

6. VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO] (9.55)

  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/_SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane"> 6.1 ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach

break (10.30)

7. Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW] (11.00)

7.1 UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

7.2 UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

8. Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM] (11.55)

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

8.1 DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.

8.2 Spectral Data Model, JCM

  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

Lunch (12.45)

9. Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT] (14.00)

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • A survey among data providers and consumers has been conducted.
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues
    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

10. 14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR] (14.50)

  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.

11. Wrapping Up, RH (15.30)

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

Meeting closed at 16.00

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

Changed:
<
<
  • FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo
>
>
  • Action IM1003-P2-1 FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo
  prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
Changed:
<
<
  • UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and
>
>
  • Action IM1003-P2-2 UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and
  how to deal with backward compatibility
Changed:
<
<
  • WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definitions
>
>
  • Action IM1003-P2-3 WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • Action IM1003-P2-4 UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definition
 

<--  
-->
META TOPICMOVED by="MarcoLeoni" date="1066586402" from="IVOA.InterOpPlanery20031017" to="IVOA.InterOpPlenary20031017"

Revision 82003-10-22 - NicholasWalton

 
META TOPICPARENT name="InterOpOct2003"
Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


Changed:
<
<

8:30 Intro, RH

>
>

1. Intro, RH (8.30)

 
  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process
Changed:
<
<

8:35 Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW]

>
>

2. Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW] (8.35)

 Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003
Changed:
<
<

8:40 Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ]

>
>

3. Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ] (8.40)

 
  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable
Changed:
<
<

8:50 Registry, Tony Linde [TL]

>
>

4. Registry, Tony Linde [TL] (8.50)

 
  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'
Changed:
<
<

9:10 VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO]

>
>

5. VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO] (9.10)

 Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

Changed:
<
<

9:55 VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO]

>
>

6. VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO] (9.55)

 
  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki
Changed:
<
<

ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

>
>

ADQL/_SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane"> 6.1 ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

 
  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach
Changed:
<
<

10:30 break

>
>

break (10.30)

 
Changed:
<
<

11:00 Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW]

>
>

7. Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW] (11.00)

 
Changed:
<
<

UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

>
>

7.1 UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

 
  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model
Changed:
<
<

UCD (cont.), RW

>
>

7.2 UCD (cont.), RW

 
  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.
Changed:
<
<

11:55 Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM]

>
>

8. Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM] (11.55)

 
  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.
Changed:
<
<

DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

>
>

8.1 DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

 
  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.
Changed:
<
<

Spectral Data Model, JCM

>
>

8.2 Spectral Data Model, JCM

 
  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);
Changed:
<
<

12:45 break

>
>

Lunch (12.45)

 
Changed:
<
<

14:00 Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT]

>
>

9. Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT] (14.00)

 
  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • A survey among data providers and consumers has been conducted.
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues
    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.
Changed:
<
<

14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR]

>
>

10. 14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR] (14.50)

 
  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.
Changed:
<
<

15:30 Synthesis, RH

>
>

11. Wrapping Up, RH (15.30)

 
  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path
Changed:
<
<

16:00 Adjourn

>
>

Meeting closed at 16.00

 

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

  • FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definitions

<--  
-->
META TOPICMOVED by="MarcoLeoni" date="1066586402" from="IVOA.InterOpPlanery20031017" to="IVOA.InterOpPlenary20031017"

Revision 72003-10-19 - MarcoLeoni

Added:
>
>
META TOPICPARENT name="InterOpOct2003"
 Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


8:30 Intro, RH

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

8:35 Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW]

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

8:40 Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ]

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable

8:50 Registry, Tony Linde [TL]

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

9:10 VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO]

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

9:55 VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO]

  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach

10:30 break

11:00 Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW]

UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

11:55 Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM]

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.

Spectral Data Model, JCM

  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

12:45 break

14:00 Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT]

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • A survey among data providers and consumers has been conducted.
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues
    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR]

  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.

15:30 Synthesis, RH

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

16:00 Adjourn

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

  • FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definitions

<--  
-->
Added:
>
>
META TOPICMOVED by="MarcoLeoni" date="1066586402" from="IVOA.InterOpPlanery20031017" to="IVOA.InterOpPlenary20031017"
 

Revision 62003-10-18 - MarkusDolensky

 Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


8:30 Intro, RH

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

8:35 Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW]

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

8:40 Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ]

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable

8:50 Registry, Tony Linde [TL]

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

9:10 VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO]

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

9:55 VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO]

  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach

10:30 break

11:00 Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW]

UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

11:55 Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM]

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.

Spectral Data Model, JCM

  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

12:45 break

14:00 Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT]

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
Added:
>
>
 
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues
    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR]

  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.

15:30 Synthesis, RH

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

16:00 Adjourn

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

  • FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definitions

<--  
-->

Revision 52003-10-18 - MarkusDolensky

 Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Content:


8:30 Intro, RH

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

8:35 Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW]

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

8:40 Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ]

  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable

8:50 Registry, Tony Linde [TL]

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'

9:10 VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO]

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

9:55 VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO]

  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
  3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki

ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Issues:
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
    Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
A: layered approach

10:30 break

11:00 Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW]

UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

UCD (cont.), RW

  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

11:55 Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM]

  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
A: No.
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow
suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
Changed:
<
<
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to <dm@ivoa.net>.
>
>
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to dm@ivoa.net.
 

Spectral Data Model, JCM

Changed:
<
<
  • The Model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
>
>
  • The model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
 Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

12:45 break

14:00 Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT]

  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
Changed:
<
<
  • output formats text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
>
>
  • output formats: text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
 Q: What formats are required to support?
A: Not yet decided.
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues
    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.
Changed:
<
<

14:50, Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR]

>
>

14:50 Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR]

 
  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
Changed:
<
<
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.
>
>
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.
 

15:30 Synthesis, RH

  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

16:00 Adjourn

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

  • FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definitions

<--  
-->

Revision 42003-10-18 - TWikiGuest

Changed:
<
<
Minutes IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00
>
>
Minutes of IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00
  Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Changed:
<
<
Content
>
>
Content:
 

8:30 Intro, RH

  • General announcements
  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process

8:35 Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW]

Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy. First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

8:40 Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ]

Changed:
<
<
13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation" Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003 - :priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL

>
>
  • 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
  • There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation"
  • Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching
  • Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003
Priorities
1 Registries
2 DAL
2 UCD
3 DM
3 VOQL
3 VOTable
Deleted:
<
<
3 VOTable
 

8:50 Registry, Tony Linde [TL]

  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
Changed:
<
<
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support
>
>
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support OAI httpGet with 'date since'
Deleted:
<
<
  • OAI httpGet with 'date since'
 

9:10 VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO]

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
Changed:
<
<
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
>
>
Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else?
 A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
Changed:
<
<
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element move the actual definition outside the table;
>
>
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image; no consensus yet
  • extensions to COOSYS element; move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated; it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
Deleted:
<
<
Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
 
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

9:55 VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO]

Changed:
<
<
Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft 3 Agreements:
>
>
  • Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft
  • 3 Agreements:
 
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
Deleted:
<
<
Working document review should take place within a month ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki
 
  1. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
Added:
>
>
  • Working document review should take place within a month
  • ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki
 

ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

Changed:
<
<
after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
web services using new ADQL parser are already available
SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable

>
>
  • after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?)
  • web services using new ADQL parser are already available
  • SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable
  • call for implementers
Deleted:
<
<
call for implementers
 Issues:
Deleted:
<
<
 
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not
Changed:
<
<
A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it. Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet. No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
>
>
A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it.
Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
  • No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
Deleted:
<
<
Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in?
 A: layered approach

10:30 break

Added:
>
>
 

11:00 Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW]

UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

Added:
>
>
  • IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
  • RW and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
  • Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
  • Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
  • Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
  • There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
  • Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model
 
Deleted:
<
<
IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore
Roy Williams and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.)
Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls 
Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin
There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue.
Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model
 
Deleted:
<
<
 

UCD (cont.), RW

Changed:
<
<
Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2 UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
>
>
  • Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2
  • UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
 
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
Changed:
<
<
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context
>
>
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions.
Deleted:
<
<
since this is prone to false assumptions.
  *How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

11:55 Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM]

Changed:
<
<
Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
Goal: provide abstract description of data
DM session summary:
provide DAL interface design
reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.

>
>
  • Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models
  • documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model
  • Goal: provide abstract description of data
  • provide DAL interface design
  • reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms
  • work on mini models for errors, quantities etc.
  • discussion of spectrum model with DAL
Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
Deleted:
<
<
discussion of spectrum model with DAL Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model?
 A: No.
Changed:
<
<
It should also be possible to use 'other' models to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema. Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.
>
>
  • It should also be possible to use other models of different origin to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema.
  • Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models
  • The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.
Deleted:
<
<
 

DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

Changed:
<
<
different points of view:
>
>
  • different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) ,
Deleted:
<
<
query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) ,
  data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
Changed:
<
<
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks
>
>
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks;please send data model use cases to <dm@ivoa.net>.
Deleted:
<
<
to ALL: please send data model use cases to <dm@ivoa.net>
 

Spectral Data Model, JCM

Changed:
<
<
The Model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
http://www.ivoa.net/forum/dm/0132.htm
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")

>
>
  • The Model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra.
Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)?
  • Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping")
  • Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads
  • Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);
Deleted:
<
<
Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);
 
Added:
>
>
 

12:45 break

14:00 Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT]

Changed:
<
<
introducing virtual data
Dataset IDs: need to define those
utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
formal getData method; could use XPath 
Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
output formats text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics

>
>
  • introducing virtual data
  • Dataset IDs: need to define those
  • utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models
  • Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables
  • formal getData method; could use XPath
  • Major topic: Simple Spectral Access (SSA)
  • develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs
  • provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs
  • service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search
  • output formats text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics
Q: What formats are required to support?
Deleted:
<
<
Q: What formats are required to support?
 A: Not yet decided.
Changed:
<
<
Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format. SSA interface issues
  • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
  • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA) fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate
>
>
  • Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format.
  • SSA interface issues
    • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
    • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
  • Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later
  • initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time
  • Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA)
  • fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format
  • Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.
Deleted:
<
<
effort when defining also a VOTable format Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.
 

14:50, Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR]

Changed:
<
<
metadata interface between registry and service: 
Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
Heartbeat interface: availability of service
TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
Guy Rixon to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)

>
>
  • metadata interface between registry and service:
  • Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource
  • Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry
  • Heartbeat interface: availability of service
  • TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
  • GR to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
  • services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
Deleted:
<
<
services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion,
 coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
Changed:
<
<
list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ... access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates Nic Walton to get legal advice about storing personal information There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support no consensus on tools to use Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...) [Martin Hill: get pointer to software tool for embedding web services in various languages]
>
>
  • list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
  • access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates
  • NW to get legal advice about storing personal information
  • There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support
  • no consensus on tools to use
  • Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...)
Q: How to connect web services to old legacy software like Fortran tools?
A: See Martin Hill's posting to DAL mailing list.
 
Changed:
<
<

15:30 Synthesis, BH

>
>

15:30 Synthesis, RH

 
  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path
Changed:
<
<

16:00 End of Meeting

>
>

16:00 Adjourn

 

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates

Action Items

  • FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definitions

<--  
-->

Revision 32003-10-18 - MarkusDolensky

 Minutes IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]


Added:
>
>
Content
 
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<
<
1. Robert Hanisch [RH]: Announcement 8:35
>
>

8:30 Intro, RH

  • General announcements
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>
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  • Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a sociologic phenomenon; feedback on process
 
Deleted:
<
<
2. Nicholas Walton [NW]: Astro-RG 8:40
 
Deleted:
<
<
3. Peter Quinn [PQ]: Overview of IVOA 8:45

IVOA Work Group Reports: 4. Tony Linde [TL]: Registry 8:50

5. Francois Ochsenbein [FO]: VOTable 9:10

6a. Masatoshi Oishi [MO]: VOQL 9:55 6b. Wil O'Mullange [WM]: ADQL/SkyNode 10:05 - 10:30

7a. Clive Page [CP]: UCD - WG splinter session summary 11:00

7b. Roy Williams [RW]: UCD (cont.) 11:10

8a. Jonathan McDowell [JCM]: Data Model 11:55

8b. Alberto Micol [AM]: DM Use Cases 12:10

8c. JCM: Spectral Data Model 12:15 - 12:45

9. Doug Tody [DT]: Data Access Layer 14:00

10. Guy Rixon [GR]: Grid & Web Services 14:50

11. RH: Synthesis 15:30 - 16:00

************************************************************************

8:30 Intro, Bob Hanisch [BH]

General announcements Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a "sociologic phenomenon"; feedback on process
 

8:35 Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW]

Changed:
<
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Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy
>
>
Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy.
Deleted:
<
<
http://forge.gridforum.org/projects/astro-rg/
 First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003
Added:
>
>
 

8:40 Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ]

13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years
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<
<
There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation" [find URL] Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching Key Activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003 - priorities
>
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There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation" Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching Key activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003 - :priorities
Added:
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 1 Registries 2 DAL 2 UCD 3 DM 3 VOQL 3 VOTable
Added:
>
>
 

8:50 Registry, Tony Linde [TL]

Changed:
<
<
Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level Overview of Identifiers Document Overview of Resource Metadata Document XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support " OAI httpGet with 'date since' "
>
>
  • Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level
  • Overview of Identifiers Document
  • Overview of Resource Metadata Document
  • XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit
  • Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form
  • Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support
  • OAI httpGet with 'date since'
 

9:10 VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO]

Proposed improvements to VOTable specification:
Changed:
<
<
- utype attribute - link to data model - contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
>
>
  • utype attribute
  • link to data model
  • contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter"
 Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else? A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway.
Changed:
<
<
- Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell - FIELD element as a pointer - #no consensus yet - encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image
>
>
  • Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell
  • FIELD element as a pointer
  • #no consensus yet
  • encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image
  no consensus yet
Changed:
<
<
- extensions to COOSYS element
>
>
  • extensions to COOSYS element
  move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems
Changed:
<
<
- character representation of numbers; discussion started - should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged - other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ... - mimetypes Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats
>
>
  • character representation of numbers; discussion started
  • should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged
  • other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ...
  • mimetypes
  • Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element
  • Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema
  • Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free
  • Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats
 

9:55 VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO]

Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft 3 Agreements:
Changed:
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<
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
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  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
 
  1. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
Working document review should take place within a month ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki
  1. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language

ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

Added:
>
>

 after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?) web services using new ADQL parser are already available SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable call for implementers
Changed:
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Issues:
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>
Issues:
Added:
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  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it. Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet.
No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+ Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in? A: layered approach

10:30 break

11:00 Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW]

UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

Added:
>
>

 IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore Roy Williams and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.) Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls
Changed:
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<
Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
>
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Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach
 Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue. Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model
Added:
>
>
 

UCD (cont.), RW

Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2 UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
Let's find use cases:
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
Projects:
Changed:
<
<
prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function; table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
>
>
  • prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function;
  • table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set
 Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD?
Changed:
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Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context
>
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  • Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations
  • Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context
 since this is prone to false assumptions.
Changed:
<
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How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to
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*How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.
Deleted:
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become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.
 
Changed:
<
<

11:55 Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM]

>
>

11:55 Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM]

Added:
>
>

 Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model Goal: provide abstract description of data DM session summary: provide DAL interface design reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms work on mini models for errors, quantities etc. discussion of spectrum model with DAL Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model? A: No. It should also be possible to use 'other' models to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema. Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.
Added:
>
>
 

DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow suggestion for priorities:
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks to ALL: please send data model use cases to <dm@ivoa.net>

Spectral Data Model, JCM

Added:
>
>

 The Model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra. http://www.ivoa.net/forum/dm/0132.htm Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)? Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping") Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);
Added:
>
>
 

12:45 break

14:00 Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT]

Added:
>
>

 introducing virtual data Dataset IDs: need to define those utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables formal getData method; could use XPath Simple Spectral Access (SSA) develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search output formats text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics Q: What formats are required to support? A: Not yet decided. Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format. SSA interface issues
  • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
  • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA) fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.
Added:
>
>
 

14:50, Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR]

Added:
>
>

 metadata interface between registry and service: Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry Heartbeat interface: availability of service TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue
Changed:
<
<
Guy Rixon to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
>
>
Guy Rixon to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...)
 services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion, coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets.
Changed:
<
<
list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
>
>
list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ...
 access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates Nic Walton to get legal advice about storing personal information There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support no consensus on tools to use Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...) [Martin Hill: get pointer to software tool for embedding web services in various languages]
Added:
>
>
 

15:30 Synthesis, BH

Changed:
<
<
post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki next IVOA telecon with WG leads cross talk between groups can be improved splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path
>
>
  • post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki
  • next IVOA telecon with WG leads
  • cross talk between groups can be improved
  • splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion
  • Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path
 

16:00 End of Meeting

Changed:
<
<

Calendar:

- January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO - Atlanta Meeting after AAS - next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004 - 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
>
>

Calendar

  • January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO
  • Atlanta Meeting after AAS
  • next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004
Added:
>
>
  • 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004
  • bookmark this page for updates
 

Action Items

  • FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov.
  • UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility
  • WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages
  • UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definitions

<--  
-->

Revision 22003-10-18 - TWikiGuest

 Minutes IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]

Added:
>
>


 
Deleted:
<
<

Notes:

 1. Robert Hanisch [RH]: Announcement 8:35

2. Nicholas Walton [NW]: Astro-RG 8:40

3. Peter Quinn [PQ]: Overview of IVOA 8:45

IVOA Work Group Reports: 4. Tony Linde [TL]: Registry 8:50

5. Francois Ochsenbein [FO]: VOTable 9:10

6a. Masatoshi Oishi [MO]: VOQL 9:55 6b. Wil O'Mullange [WM]: ADQL/SkyNode 10:05 - 10:30

7a. Clive Page [CP]: UCD - WG splinter session summary 11:00

7b. Roy Williams [RW]: UCD (cont.) 11:10

8a. Jonathan McDowell [JCM]: Data Model 11:55

8b. Alberto Micol [AM]: DM Use Cases 12:10

8c. JCM: Spectral Data Model 12:15 - 12:45

9. Doug Tody [DT]: Data Access Layer 14:00

10. Guy Rixon [GR]: Grid & Web Services 14:50

11. RH: Synthesis 15:30 - 16:00

************************************************************************

Changed:
<
<
1. Intro
>
>

8:30 Intro, Bob Hanisch [BH]

 General announcements Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a "sociologic phenomenon"; feedback on process
Changed:
<
<
2. Astro-RG
>
>

8:35 Astro-RG, Nic Walton [NW]

 Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy http://forge.gridforum.org/projects/astro-rg/ First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003
Changed:
<
<
>
>

8:40 Overview of IVOA, Peter Quinn [PQ]

Deleted:
<
<
3. IVOA Overview
 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation" [find URL] Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching Key Activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003 - priorities 1 Registries 2 DAL 2 UCD 3 DM 3 VOQL 3 VOTable
Changed:
<
<
4. Registry
>
>

8:50 Registry, Tony Linde [TL]

 Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level Overview of Identifiers Document Overview of Resource Metadata Document XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support " OAI httpGet with 'date since' "
Changed:
<
<
5. VOTable
>
>

9:10 VOTable, Francoise Ochsenbein [FO]

 Proposed improvements to VOTable specification: - utype attribute - link to data model - contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter" Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else? A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway. - Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell - FIELD element as a pointer - #no consensus yet - encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image no consensus yet - extensions to COOSYS element move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems - character representation of numbers; discussion started - should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged - other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ... - mimetypes Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

Changed:
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6a. VOQL
>
>

9:55 VOQL, Masatoshi Oishi [MO]

 Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft 3 Agreements:
Changed:
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<
1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery) 2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
>
>
  1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery)
  2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs
 Working document review should take place within a month ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki
Changed:
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<
3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
>
>
  1. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language
 
Changed:
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6b. ADQL/SkyNode
>
>

ADQL/SkyNode, Wil O'Mullane [WM]

 after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?) web services using new ADQL parser are already available SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable call for implementers Issues:
Changed:
<
<
- Neighbors to be added to ADQL - Functions port - Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future) - UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not
>
>
  • Neighbors to be added to ADQL
  • Functions port
  • Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future)
  • UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not
  A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it. Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet. No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+ Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in? A: layered approach
Added:
>
>

10:30 break

 
Changed:
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7a. UCD session summary
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11:00 Uniform Content Descriptors, Roy Williams [RW]

Added:
>
>

UCD Session Summary, Clive Page [CP]

 IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore Roy Williams and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.) Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue. Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model
Changed:
<
<
7b. UCD (cont.)
>
>

UCD (cont.), RW

 Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2 UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available
Changed:
<
<
- about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
>
>
  • about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons
 Let's find use cases:
Changed:
<
<
- What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc? - Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
>
>
  • What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc?
  • Set of relevant queries: photometric, ???
 Projects: prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function; table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD? Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.
Changed:
<
<
8a. Data Model
>
>

11:55 Data Model, Jonathan McDowell [JCM]

 Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model Goal: provide abstract description of data DM session summary: provide DAL interface design reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms work on mini models for errors, quantities etc. discussion of spectrum model with DAL Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model? A: No. It should also be possible to use 'other' models to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema. Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.
Changed:
<
<
8b. DM Use Cases
>
>

DM Use Cases, Alberto Micol [AM]

 different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow suggestion for priorities:
Changed:
<
<
- data packaging & formats - data coveratge - instrument model
>
>
  • data packaging & formats
  • data coveratge
  • instrument model
 call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks to ALL: please send data model use cases to <dm@ivoa.net>
Changed:
<
<
8c. Spectral Data Model
>
>

Spectral Data Model, JCM

 The Model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra. http://www.ivoa.net/forum/dm/0132.htm Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)? Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping") Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);
Added:
>
>

12:45 break

 
Changed:
<
<
9. Data Access Layer
>
>

14:00 Data Access Layer, Doug Tody [DT]

 introducing virtual data Dataset IDs: need to define those utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables formal getData method; could use XPath Simple Spectral Access (SSA) develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search output formats text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics Q: What formats are required to support? A: Not yet decided. Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format. SSA interface issues
Changed:
<
<
- Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata - SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
>
>
  • Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata
  • SSA service verification - should be part of registration process
 Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA) fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.
Changed:
<
<
10. Grid & Web Services
>
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14:50, Grid & Web Services, Guy Rixon [GR]

 metadata interface between registry and service: Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry Heartbeat interface: availability of service TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue Guy Rixon to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...) services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion, coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets. list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ... access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates Nic Walton to get legal advice about storing personal information There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support no consensus on tools to use Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...) [Martin Hill: get pointer to software tool for embedding web services in various languages]
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15:30 Synthesis, BH

 post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki next IVOA telecon with WG leads cross talk between groups can be improved splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path
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Revision 12003-10-18 - MarkusDolensky

 Minutes IVOA Plenary Session, Oct. 17, 2003, 8:30 - 16:00

Chair: Robert Hanisch [RH]

Minutes: Markus Dolensky [MD]

Notes:

1. Robert Hanisch [RH]: Announcement 8:35

2. Nicholas Walton [NW]: Astro-RG 8:40

3. Peter Quinn [PQ]: Overview of IVOA 8:45

IVOA Work Group Reports: 4. Tony Linde [TL]: Registry 8:50

5. Francois Ochsenbein [FO]: VOTable 9:10

6a. Masatoshi Oishi [MO]: VOQL 9:55 6b. Wil O'Mullange [WM]: ADQL/SkyNode 10:05 - 10:30

7a. Clive Page [CP]: UCD - WG splinter session summary 11:00

7b. Roy Williams [RW]: UCD (cont.) 11:10

8a. Jonathan McDowell [JCM]: Data Model 11:55

8b. Alberto Micol [AM]: DM Use Cases 12:10

8c. JCM: Spectral Data Model 12:15 - 12:45

9. Doug Tody [DT]: Data Access Layer 14:00

10. Guy Rixon [GR]: Grid & Web Services 14:50

11. RH: Synthesis 15:30 - 16:00

************************************************************************

1. Intro General announcements Mark Ackerman is studying IVOA as a "sociologic phenomenon"; feedback on process

2. Astro-RG Reports about new Global Grid Forum (GGF) Research Group for Astronomy http://forge.gridforum.org/projects/astro-rg/ First meeting took place at GGF9 in Chicago, Oct. 2003

3. IVOA Overview 13 members, sum of member project's budgets 25 mio. Euro in 3-5 years There is a paper about VO Compliance: "Guidelines for Participation" [find URL] Roadmap: Defined in June 2002 in Garching Key Activities set at IVOA meeting in Seattle, Jan. 2003 - priorities 1 Registries 2 DAL 2 UCD 3 DM 3 VOQL 3 VOTable

4. Registry Pushed documents about Identifiers and Resource Meta Data from working draft to recommendation level Overview of Identifiers Document Overview of Resource Metadata Document XML Schema: current version 0.8.3; overview using XMLSpy toolkit Interfaces Discussion Points: browsing, admin methods, query language, call mode, response form Harvesting/Replication: For Jan 04 demos it was decided to support " OAI httpGet with 'date since' "

5. VOTable Proposed improvements to VOTable specification: - utype attribute - link to data model - contents of the attribute as "namespace:datamodel-parameter" Q: Should we rename utype to mtype or something else? A: Probably. It is simply a matter of getting used to it anyway. - Arrays of variable strings: allows several words in a table cell - FIELD element as a pointer - #no consensus yet - encoding attribute for TD element to insert binary data at the cell level, e.g. an image no consensus yet - extensions to COOSYS element move the actual definition outside the table; Note to developers: COOSYS may become deprecated it could be replaced by a TBD 'utype' attribute Motivation: there may be different coordinate systems required in a single document; get rid of restriction to extrasolar coord. systems - character representation of numbers; discussion started - should FIELD and PARAM elements be merged - other tabular representations: BinX, CSV, TSV, ... - mimetypes Suggestion: Add ucd and/or utype attribute also to TABLE element Suggestion: Replace choices by substitution groups in VOTable schema Suggestion: Use URIs for utype values since this gives namespace handling for free Suggestion: Use a namespace so that votable elements can be used in other XML document formats

6a. VOQL Discussed SkyNode Interface Working Draft 3 Agreements: 1. layered structure for VOQL (VOQL1 web services; VOQL2 federation; VOQL3 SkyXQuery) 2. there is a need to modify VOQL with respect to UCDs Working document review should take place within a month ADQL parser from JHU is available from Wiki 3. ADQL should NOT in general be used as a registry query language

6b. ADQL/SkyNode after SkyNode V0.5 (current doc) it will be split into 2 docs: SkyNode 0.6/ADQL 0.6(?) web services using new ADQL parser are already available SkyNode Interface: It needs to return at least a VOTable call for implementers Issues: - Neighbors to be added to ADQL - Functions port - Asynch Query/Auth/MyDB (further in the future) - UCDs in ADQL divided: some queries could be UCD driven, others probably not A UCD driven query requires the registry to know how to resolve it. Note: To resolve a query by UCD may require another query against the registry. There is, however, no such registry query language support yet. No conclusion whether UCD queries should be supported in VOQL1 or only in VOQL2+ Q: Is VOQL doing too much? How do data providers cope with it? Where does the data model come in? A: layered approach

7a. UCD session summary IAU thesaurus is not a perfect reference since it isn't maintained adequatly anymore Roy Williams and Sebastien Derriere made suggestions how to go from UCD1 to UCD2s (refactoring, etc.) Patricio Ortiz showed summary of UCD usage, issues and pitfalls Tom McGlynn proposed a simplified UCD2 approach Pierre Fernique showed how to use UCD1 to formulate queries in Aladin There was broad consensus that UCD2 would make such queries easier and related efforts sould continue. Waveband definitions should be aligned with similar defintions in Registry and Data Model

7b. UCD (cont.) Introduced Concept and Property idea for UCD2 UCD Working Draft V1.9.9 available - about 50% of the audience wrote already code using UCDs; mostly simple string comparisons Let's find use cases: - What would be useful APIs to UCD; how to express template/action; etc? - Set of relevant queries: photometric, ??? Projects: prototype the UCD2 structure; make matching function; table metadata presentation: derive human-readable description from UCD set Q: Who's responsible for documenting the meaning of a UCD? Applications: Aladin, VOPlot, transformations Several members of the audience advocate NOT to tackle coord. transformations in this context since this is prone to false assumptions. How to proceed? UCD1 are de facto frozen until agreement on future path is found. The UCD steering committee has to become active on this issue and what to do about backward compatibility.

8a. Data Model Since last meeting in May there was a transition to true collaboration on data models documents being worked on: use case document, observation data model white paper, spectrum data model Goal: provide abstract description of data DM session summary: provide DAL interface design reports on quantity, interferometry, transforms work on mini models for errors, quantities etc. discussion of spectrum model with DAL Q: Is the goal to describe each ucd/utype attribute in any given VOTable by some data model? A: No. It should also be possible to use 'other' models to some extend if they are described in a certain format like XML schema. Observation Model: comparison of 6 existing models The comparsion revealed a lot of conceptual commonalities but differencies in terminology.

8b. DM Use Cases different points of view: query, visualization, instrument model, data analysis (coverage, WCS,...) , data packaging, data provenance, observing program/data flow suggestion for priorities: - data packaging & formats - data coveratge - instrument model call for feedback about use cases within the next few weeks to ALL: please send data model use cases to <dm@ivoa.net>

8c. Spectral Data Model The Model is for 1d spectra and SEDs, but designed to be extensible to multi-dim spectra. http://www.ivoa.net/forum/dm/0132.htm Q: Data Models are rather low level: What about high level model(s)? Suggestion: Define concepts early on ("Error", "Domain Mapping") Suggestion: use notation "[TOPIC]" in email subject lines to make it easier to follow threads Suggestion: use namespaces in UML diagrams which should ideally include author and DM (group name);

9. Data Access Layer introducing virtual data Dataset IDs: need to define those utype, UCD normalization needed to reference data models Proposal: access reference templating to shrink large SIA/SSA result tables formal getData method; could use XPath Simple Spectral Access (SSA) develop uniform data model with data modelers for 1dspectra and SEDs provide uniform interface to 1dspectra and SEDs service interface similar to SIA, Cone Search output formats text, VOTAble, FITS, graphics Q: What formats are required to support? A: Not yet decided. Suggestion: A service only needs to provide one format. Client first looks up registry to find appropriate service that returns spectra in desired format. SSA interface issues - Registry integration: service metadata query, SSA service metadata - SSA service verification - should be part of registration process Query: discussed set of query attributes; simple keyword queries (now), ADQL queries later initially supported query params: pos, size, spectral resolution, bandpass, time Suggestion: Normalize services soon (SIA,CS,SSA) fits (table or image?); 1d image containing linear spectra would avoid duplicate effort when defining also a VOTable format Suggestion: Do not invest much in a FITS format because FITS standardization for spectra is under way.

10. Grid & Web Services metadata interface between registry and service: Suggestion: rename metadata port to resource Wil O'Mullane to write up and liase with registry Heartbeat interface: availability of service TCP/UDP ports: firewall issue Guy Rixon to maintain list of ports (GridFTP, LDAP, ...) services to standardize: name resolver, "Network weather", unit conversion, coordinate conversion, authorization/access policy, storage for derived data-sets. list of services: SkyNode VOQL service, MySpace data storage, GGF authorization port-type(s), ... access control: authorization, authentication, ID certificates Nic Walton to get legal advice about storing personal information There's a variety of Grid service usage scenarios with different levels of possible support no consensus on tools to use Suggestion: Set up wiki page where we can share experience with various environments/tools (Axis, C#, ...) [Martin Hill: get pointer to software tool for embedding web services in various languages]

11. Synthesis post implementation plans, schedules of WGs to wiki next IVOA telecon with WG leads cross talk between groups can be improved splinter sessions are big but still such that everbody can express opinion Mark Ackermann suggests to define items that are on the IVOA critical path

Calendar: - January 2004 demos at AAS for NVO and at ESO (most likely venue at present) for AVO - Atlanta Meeting after AAS - next interop workshop: Boston, Apr/May 2004 - 2nd next interop workshop: Pasadena, Oct 2004

Action Items: - FO: priortize VOTable changes to work on; consider needs for next Jan 04 demo prepare working draft V1.1 by mid-Nov. for simple important changes transform V1.0 doc into IVOA proposed recommendation by mid-Nov. - UCD technical board: Decide on how to make transition from UCD1 to UCD2 and how to deal with backward compatibility - WG leads: post schedules to WG wiki pages - UCD/Registry/DM: align waveband definitions


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