Dm2021 < IVOA

During Fall 2020 Interop we had a [[InterOpNov2020DM][session]], requested by Markus Demleitner, that aimed at opening a wide discussion on both Measure and Coordinate models and possibly at refining their usages.

This came after a long discussion on the mailing list, related to the necessity of keeping or not a tight dependancy between Measurements and Coordinates. It has also been suggested that product models (e.g. CubeDM ) could be replaced with domain related components.

Many people have participated to the discussion with many positive contributions. <br />Although the goal of this message is not to report on that meeting, we do need to note a few points:
   * There is a clear demand for using models
   * There is a clear demand for the models to be simple and modular.
   * The distinction between what is modelling and what is serialisation is unclear.
The need for a concrete solution for annotating catalog data, that resurfaced last week, has been tackled by the WG for a couple of years along with the development of Meas/Coordinates models.
   * 2018:<a target="_blank" href="SourceCatalogs">Discussions</a> have been engaged on this topic after a hands-on session in Victoria.
   * 2019: We asked data providers and client developers to [[InterOpMay2019DM][present]] their needs in a dedicated session at Paris
After these 2 surveys the scope of the model usage has been exposed in Virtual May 2020 and we have been working on MANGO (model for source data with some MC adaptations ) that has been sketched in Groningen and in virtual-May and then [[%PUBURL%/IVOA/InterOpNov2020DM/Mango_interopFall2020.pdf][presented]] in November 2020.

To continue this action we have been organising a virtual workshop (initially proposed by Tom to the TCG) with the hope of getting a widely accepted framework.

The idea is not to start afresh but to give to the participants the opportunity of matching their needs with the current proposals.

To get a clear picture of what has to be done, we propose to work with a variety concrete use cases, mostly taken out of the SourceDM proposal ( [[https://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/dm/SourceDM/][2016]]) and data samples provided by interested people.
---+++ Timeline
   * 2021 February 18: Public release of the use-case [[https://github.com/ivoa/dm-usecases][repository]].
   * 2021 February 24: Running meeting to present the process
   * 2021 March: People can look and contribute at the repository
   * 2021 April: Virtual Workshop.
---++ Running meeting(25/02/2021)
   * Etherpad [[https://yopad.eu/p/dm_virtual_meeeting_#2-365days][link]
*SESSION #1*

<strong><br /></strong>
<div id="magicdomid2"> *DM meeting - Workshop preparation - collective remarks and minutes* </div> <div id="magicdomid3">Participants 15</div> <div id="magicdomid4">

   * Mirreille Louys, Tom Donaldson Laurent Michel, Mark CD, Jesus Salgado, Gilles Landais, Francoise Genova, Kai Polsterer, Marco Molinaro, Francois Bonnarel , FX Pineau, Carlos Rodrigo, Sara Bertocco, Vincenzo Galluzzi, Markus Demleitner
</div> <div id="magicdomid20"><strong>The purpose of this meeting is to prepar</strong><strong>e</strong><strong> the DM workshop forseen in April 2021: </strong></div> <div id="magicdomid22"> *Workshop goals* </div> <div id="magicdomid23">LM presents the goal of the meeting. Preparation of meeting on data models on VO and how</div> <div id="magicdomid24">to improve consensus on data modeling generation.</div> <div id="magicdomid25">Some DMs work well but disagreements on how to match models with scientific quantities.</div> <div id="magicdomid26">Proposal to solve mapping problems is MANGO, developed by LM</div> <div id="magicdomid27">Also, proposal from Tom D. to organize a workshop on how to solve this gap</div> <div id="magicdomid29"> *Proposed process to prepare the workshop* </div> <div id="magicdomid30">Gather a list of concrete use cases and possible solutions</div> <div id="magicdomid31">Gather contributions</div> <div id="magicdomid32">
   * propose new use cases
</div> <div id="magicdomid33">
   * comment the use cases
</div> <div id="magicdomid34">
   * propose a solution
</div> <div id="magicdomid35">
   * comment proposed solutions
</div> <div id="magicdomid37"> *The dm-usecases repository* </div> <div id="magicdomid38">Link https://github.com/ivoa/dm-usecases</div> <div id="magicdomid39">These use cases is created compiling some VO historical use cases that require data modeling</div> <div id="magicdomid40">Two folders per use case, raw_data with an annotated xml and another folder with a mango proposal</div> <div id="magicdomid41">fulfilling the use case</div> <div id="magicdomid43">Time line for contribution to the use cases repository is during March to allow the pull requests merging</div> <div id="magicdomid44">of all the contributions</div> <div id="magicdomid46">poll created on use cases portal:</div> <div id="magicdomid47">https://github.com/ivoa/dm-usecases/wiki/poll</div> <div id="magicdomid49">FB: Procedure is to create a branch and ask for a pull request to be merged by LM? yes, either for commenting</div> <div id="magicdomid50">existing or creating a new use case</div> <div id="magicdomid52">TM: Lack of consensus are, in my view, due to the level of implementation of the solutions</div> <div id="magicdomid53">LM: I contacted Mark T. about using data models in Topcat and the problem comes from heteregeneous data</div> <div id="magicdomid54">modeling annotations in VOTables</div> <div id="magicdomid55">FG: It is difficult to decide whether to implement before having an idea of the work required to implement</div> <div id="magicdomid56">This means that the point has to be central to the workshop using the use cases</div> <div id="magicdomid58">MD: Will implement. If it works for VizieR, it will work for him.</div> <div id="magicdomid60">TM: Use case for proper motion representation?</div> <div id="magicdomid61">LM: Yes, in astrometry</div> <div id="magicdomid63">Mark CD: Orbital models not present, a new use case is needed</div> <div id="magicdomid65">MD: Not clear if we need models for quantities as this could be solved just with UCDs</div> <div id="magicdomid66">FB: UCDs are standalone, DM informs about quantities.</div> <div id="magicdomid67">MD: physics: UCDs, use DM to annotate</div> <div id="magicdomid69">GL: Mango enables to link two different quantities together, no need to have a specific model for each case.</div> <div id="magicdomid71"> *Workshop conduct* </div> <div id="magicdomid72">virtual / in person ?</div> <div id="magicdomid74"> *Proposal and decision for a* *Date* </div> <div id="magicdomid75">
   * End of April ?
*SESSION #2*

<div id="magicdomid109">DM meeting - Workshop preparation - collective remarks and minutes - Second session</div> <div id="magicdomid522">Participants 8: Laurent Michel, Mireille Louys, Gregory Dubois-Felsmann, Jesus Salgado, Francois Bonnarel, Gerard Lemson, Tom Donaldson, Mark Allen, Harry Enke</div> <div id="magicdomid261">LM presents objective of propossed workshop and historical background</div> <div id="magicdomid303">poll created on use cases portal:</div> <div id="magicdomid304">https://github.com/ivoa/dm-usecases/wiki/poll</div> <div id="magicdomid321">Use cases page proposed:</div> <div id="magicdomid324">https://github.com/ivoa/dm-usecases</div> <div id="magicdomid370">GL: Is there a DM behind all the MANGO annotations?</div> <div id="magicdomid371">LM: totally free</div> <div id="magicdomid421">Changes to be done in another branch (to be merged with trunk after review)</div> <div id="magicdomid489">If a specific model is proposed , a new directory should be inserted</div> <div id="magicdomid525">Same if a new mapping strategy is proposed</div> <div id="magicdomid527">

---++ Running meeting(17/05/2021)
</div>
   * Etherpad [[https://pad.unistra.fr/p/pre-interop][link]
Links 
   * Usecase [[https://github.com/ivoa/dm-usecases][repository]]
   * Coords [[https://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/dm/STC/Coords/doc/PR-Coords-1.0.pdf][model]]
   * Measure [[https://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/dm/STC/Meas/doc/PR-Meas-1.0.pdf][model]]
   * Cube [[https://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/dm/Cube/][model]]
   * VODML [[https://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/dm/vo-dml/][repository]]
   * VODML [[https://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/dm/vo-dml-mapping/][mapping]]
   * MANGO [[https://github.com/ivoa-std/MANGO][model]]
   * ModelInstanceInVot [[https://github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot][mapping syntax]]
   * ModelInstanceInVot [[https://github.com/ivoa/modelinstanceinvot-code][test code]]
</div>
Attachments
Topic attachments
I	Attachment	History	Action	Size	Date	Who	Comment
pdf	Workshop_pre-interop.pdf	r1	manage	585.8 K	2021-05-17 - 14:00	LaurentMichel
pdf	workshop_pre-interop_MANGO.pdf	r1	manage	2858.9 K	2021-05-17 - 14:00	LaurentMichel
This topic: IVOA > WebHome > IvoaDataModel > SourceCatalogs > Dm2021
Topic revision: r5 - 2021-05-17 - LaurentMichel